Talk:2024 Columbia University pro-Palestinian campus occupation/Archive 1

Archive 1

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 April 2024

Background could be read to mean that it's outside agitators making their way to Columbia rather than students of the university. Here's one way to clarify the situation:

−

Pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel students have gathered at Columbia University during the Israel–Hamas war.

+

Pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel students have staged demonstrations at Columbia University during the Israel–Hamas war.

Uhoj (talk) 21:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Elli (talk | contribs) 22:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Mention of "Burn Tel Aviv" and praise for hamas in the article

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dozens-arrested-at-yale-columbia-pauses-in-person-classes-amid-anti-israel-protests/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-outside-columbia-urge-hamas-to-burn-tel-aviv-to-the-ground/ It's claim that they are peaceful protests, so it's important to give context. I think it's important to mention that they are praising hamas (a terror organzation in USA) and are calling to burn tel aviv. 84.110.218.178 (talk) 15:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources

National Review is considered partisan. I think Times of Israel can be cited.

We can probably include better sources of the documented antisemitic chants. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 21:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

added something to April 21st. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 21:26, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The only time "burn tel aviv to the ground" appears in the times of israel article is from a linked tweet by a former Israeli ambassador and "Director of the Digital Diplomacy Bureau, Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs." This is not a reliable source. Kire1975 (talk) 22:40, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

yeah, times of Israel apparently lurched rightwards sometime in the past few decades. I have no clue what consensus is, its not banned on WP:RSP but its not mentioned either. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 22:59, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion at RSN a while ago, it didn’t really go in depth, but to the best of my knowledge, no consensus against. FortunateSons (talk) 13:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I think National Review can be cited with attribution, but as we have a likely better source, I agree with no use here as long as those are enough FortunateSons (talk) 13:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

We should include a section about allegations of antisemitism eventually. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, but I would wait a few days for a clearer picture of the reporting FortunateSons (talk) 17:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

encampment subsection

Encampment section should be separate, not a subsection of background section 2A02:A03F:6617:9501:F1DE:1112:C6A5:8140 (talk) 19:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 April 2024 (2)

change: "The protests encouraged other actions at New York University and Yale University." to "The protests encouraged other actions at New York University, Yale University, MIT, Tufts University, Emerson College, and University of Michigan." Oldhum (talk) 20:33, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Current iteration of the sentence in question has been altered to reflect an entire page made regarding this topic, being Pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in the United States. There is an active merge request being discussed regarding this article. Until that discussion concludes, I'd say editing the sentence in question is outside the scope of the non-controversial nature of edit requests. —Sirdog (talk) 06:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand what a merge discussion has to do with this sentence. Brusquedandelion (talk) 11:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 22 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: SNOW close. Overwhelming number of oppose sentiments, noting the WP:COMMONNAME policy and the lack of widespread use of the term in referring to this event. - Fuzheado | Talk 17:16, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

---

2024 Columbia University pro-Palestinian campus occupation → Gaza Solidarity Encampment – Name given to the protest by the protesters. MountainDew20 (talk) 19:15, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose because the proposed title does not provide relevant information (it's at Columbia University in 2024) and few sources have described it this way. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 22:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBECR –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Disagree. Current name is more descriptive than proposed and proposed violates our commitment to a neutral point of view. But, the current is too long. Maybe once the year is over it could be moved to 2024 Columbia University protests or something else that's descriptive with the benefit of hindsight. Uhoj (talk) 21:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC) There still should be a better, shorter name like "Columbia University pro-Palestinian occupation" or "2024 Columbia University Protests". MountainDew20 (talk) 23:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC) Ignore this, I saw you said the same. MountainDew20 (talk) 23:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC) The problem with "2024 Columbia University protests" is that there have been multiple 2024 protests at Columbia before 17 April, for example over the skunk attack incident in January. This ongoing protest is different because of the nature of how it is being conducted (a campus occupation). Evaporation123 (talk) 23:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC) Disagree: Not everyone protesting on the Columbia campus is part of the encampment, such as the faculty that recently walked out in support of the students. Perfecnot (talk) 21:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose we don't have to use the official name of things, and the overall scope of this article is wider than just the encampment. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, Gaza Solidarity Encampment redirects to this page anyways, and the scope of the article is beyond just the area of tents being that there is activity all over campus and around its perimeter as well. Evaporation123 (talk) 23:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose we should use the name commonly used in the sources. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 01:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose due to NPOV name without adequate justification, and different name used by RS. FortunateSons (talk) 07:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose inappropriate and not widely used EmyRussell (talk) 23:06, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. I'm mostly concerned with WP:TOOSOON to use the official name, but I think there is a strong argument to be made for WP:NPOV in the name as well. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 15:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment: suggest close per SNOW FortunateSons (talk) 13:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cherrypicked Response section?

Is everyone condemning the occupation? Noone in support? The Response section looks like it was made to deliberately include only the response that condemn the occupation. 2A02:85F:E058:1000:8CB0:8FDA:A957:83E9 (talk) 13:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The vast majority of government authorities in the United States are solidly pro-Israel. Evaporation123 (talk) 23:16, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Does it matter? If you see something you want to add and it has WP:RS to support it, please do.

BTW, I added AOC today. She condemned the university and the police. Kire1975 (talk) 01:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we should clean up response section, but didn't know how to. Just added a section summarizing the allegations of antisemitism User:Sawerchessread (talk) 18:18, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

WKCR as source?

WKCR is reporting that the president of the university has declared a state of emergency on campus. I see here radio can be cited as a source here but it mentions "series" and doesn't have barely any detail at all besides that. It's not like there's a record of it that people can verify. What the consensus? Kire1975 (talk) 17:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, WKCR were reporting on a second hand report from "The Quad" (whatever that is) that they got from the University Senate about the President declaring a state of emergency. So that's not a reliable report. Never mind. Kire1975 (talk) 17:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Probably wouldn't pass WP:V if there is no record of it. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 17:55, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

"Other Protests" section should mention the protests outside of the United States

Currently, the "other protests" section of this article says it is an excerpt from the April 2024 Israel–Hamas war protests on university campuses in the United States. However, that article has a section on Spread to other countries. I think that this article should also mention that there are protests at universities outside of the United States. JasonMacker (talk) 19:07, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Timeline

Should we consider a different structure instead of counting every day of events? Clearly some dates are more important than others.

If this encampment goes several days more, maybe we can try to do some different structure. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 17:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

For now it seems OK, but only just, moving forward it should be improved to avoid suffering from WP:OVERSECTION given that "Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheadings." Maybe a week by week structure could be implemented, even as early as next week; April 17–21, April 22–28, April 29 – present, etc. At present, based on the current content, April 25 and 27 are a case of over-sectioning, arguably 21 & 22 also. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 18:55, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I was coming to this talk page to propose some subsection merges. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Outdated lead

The lead doesn't successfully summarise the body per MOS:INTRO, specifically most of the second paragraph would be better placed under the section The encampment and the timeline of events should be summarised into a second paragraph, given it is most of the content.

For example similar to the second lead paragraph of the "main article" on the campus protests, which is a summary of the body based on most notable aspects of the protests. To clarify, I'm not suggesting another paragraph, as based on WP:LEADSIZE three should be more than enough, and otherwise the MOS:OPEN looks fine. Thoughts? CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 14:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Consider this over?

As far as I know, the NYPD busted in an arrested everyone, shouldn't that count as an end to this? Unless, that is, I don't have all the information. BurnerAcountOneThousandAndOne (talk) 05:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

likely too soon to know. protestors were arrested on day one, and it started up again almost immediately. Jjazz76 (talk) 05:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 May 2024

NYPD/Mayor Eric Adams has reported at a 9AM press conference that during the "Operation Columbia" where they went into Hamilton Hall, 119 were arrested. Please change "over 100" to 119. Squiddyonwiki (talk) 14:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

please provide a link to the source that you've read Abo Yemen✉ 14:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Full numbers cited here (apologies I had a typo; it's 109 not 119, according to police): https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/columbia-university-protests-nypd-arrests/

here is a full live stream of the press conference this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhAcFPVCVVE Squiddyonwiki (talk) 17:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Add the demand of protest for "food-aid" for protestors

the article only state that the protests demanding the university divest from Israel

a, the protest demands 3 things but only 1 is stated in the article

"PROTEST DEMANDS Protesters were seeking three demands from Columbia: divestment from companies supporting Israel's government, greater transparency in university finances, and amnesty for students and faculty disciplined over the protests."

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pro-palestinian-protesters-occupy-building-columbia-university-cnn-2024-04-30/

b, beside thus 3 demands that came before the take over of the hall, during the occupation they have added a new demand which I think should be mentioned in this article:

"Pro-Palestinian protesters occupying Columbia University's Hamilton Hall have demanded that the university allow food and water to be brought to them, framing it as "basic humanitarian aid.""

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/columbia-university-students-pro-palestinian-protesters-demand-food-occupy-hamilton-hall-israel-hamas-war-2533769-2024-05-01 79.176.106.171 (talk) 19:07, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding Shafik Communications To Columbia Students

https://bwog.com/2024/05/president-shafik-thanks-nypd-for-professionalism-hoping-columbia-will-heal-together/ 128.59.178.128 (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

This might be good to add about Shafik's response in the most recent update. 209.2.225.92 (talk) 20:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 April 2024

Put the College of William and Mary into the map of universities in protest as blue. It has had many Israel-Hamas war protests, including a disruption organized by W&M SJP of a meeting with former Secretary of Defense Robert Gates:

https://flathatnews.com/2023/11/06/finding-community-amidst-conflict-israel-palestine-war-sparks-student-protests-vigils-fundraisers/

https://flathatnews.com/2024/01/23/cvrp-places-students-for-justice-in-palestine-on-probation-campus-organizations-emphasize-need-for-safe-spaces/ Raginbakin (talk) 04:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: This may not be obvious, but the source for the map isn't part of this page - it is an excerpt from this article, so requests to change it should be made on that talk page.

These sources discuss protests during and prior to January 2024. However, the caption under the map says it shows campuses with protests in April 2024. Unless there have been more recent demonstrations William and Mary shouldn't be added. Jamedeus (talk) 21:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 May 2024

Israel-Gaza war 197.35.224.149 (talk) 04:50, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:57, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Cherrypicking

Interesting how the "antisemitic" incidents are highlighted, but not the violent attacks and racism by pro-Israel mobs. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I suggest making a new section mentioning the pro-Israeli violence and islamophobia so we can balance it out Abo Yemen✉ 10:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Bad Wording on

in the opening pargraph it is written:

The arrests marked the first time Columbia allowed police to suppress campus protests since the 1968 demonstrations against the Vietnam War.

the current phrasing puts the blame for suppressing the riots on Colombia for "allowing" the police to come, and not for the student who copied the Hamilton hall.

was there another time student broke into Hamilton hall since 1968 but police was not allowed to suppress the riots? 79.176.106.171 (talk) 10:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

See making edit requests. Edit requests most likely to succeed are those that are 'Specific, Uncontroversial, Necessary, Sensible' per WP:EDITXY. Your should include your proposed wording with the justification for the change. But about the justification, where is the blame in the statement? I don't think it is there. I think you are probably adding information to the statement that is not present. I don't know, but perhaps Columbia has to invite the police onto the campus because it is private property. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:21, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 May 2024 (2)

Under "Injuries: Multiple protesters exposed to tear gas." There was no tear gas used. Use of tear gas is against New York City policy, even during civil unrest. Injuries were from concussion/stun grenades and pepper spray.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/30/nyregion/columbia-protests-college https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/1/new-york-city-police-enter-columbia-campus-as-gaza-protest-escalates https://abc7ny.com/columbia-university-protests-protesters-occupy-hamilton-hall-hours-after-encampment-deadline/14744812/ Jeszie L (talk) 20:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

 Already done This claim has been removed from the article since the request was opened. Jamedeus (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Infobox "Parties" and New York Hostage and Missing Families Forum

In the infobox, where it lists the "Parties" involved, New York Hostage and Missing Families Forum shouldn't necessarily be listed under the "Pro-Israel" section. New York Hostage and Missing Families Forum wasn't counterprotesting the Gaza Solidarity Encampment per se. They're a group comprised of New York family members of Israeli hostages held in Gaza, and the Forum held a rally on a street outside of the Columbia University campus on April 26. New York Hostage and Missing Families Forum are "Pro-Israel" in that the hostages are Israeli citizens, some of the family members are Israeli Americans, and some of the rally participants carried Israeli flags. The Forum are pro-hostage release and anti-Hamas. But some of the family members, and even the hostages themselves, are anti-Netanyahu, pro-peace, and in solidarity with the Gazan people that are suffering. In fact, the Hostage and Missing Families Forum in both Israel and the US have been very critical of the Israeli government. And in the source cited in this Wikipedia article, it said one of the Forum rally participants who is a Columbia student said that "Jews and Israelis want a ceasefire." The student was quoted as saying, "I'm reminding my fellow classmates something that they may have overlooked. In order for there to be a ceasefire, all 133 hostages need to be home." [1] So it really depends on what is meant by "Pro-Israel". I think for clarity, maybe it would better to put New York Hostage and Missing Families Forum in a separate section titled "Other Groups". Their website says they are "volunteer-based and laser-focused on bringing the hostages back home to their families".[2] I didn't want to make any edits without bringing it up here first. Serenity9096 (talk) 07:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, I just realized I'm not eligible to edit this Wikipedia article but I can edit the Talk page. Serenity9096 (talk) 07:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Missing protestors demands for amnesty

it is written that's Colombia university offered partial amnesty but it's not written that it was part of protestors demands.

My suggestion is add:

"Another key demand of the movement at Columbia is amnesty for students who have been punished (including with suspensions) by the university for their activism around Palestine."

Or:

"At Columbia, the protests have been organized by a coalition of over 100 student groups called Columbia University Apartheid Divest (CUAD). The group has been seeking three main demands from the university: divestment from companies supporting Israel’s government, greater transparency in university finances, and amnesty for students and faculty disciplined over the protests. " Source supporting this argument

https://indianexpress.com/article/world/us-college-protests-columbia-university-arrests-all-you-need-to-know-9300397/#google_vignette https://apnews.com/article/student-protest-gaza-war-arrest-amnesty-ae235703d6a9b99114078fca13a530a0

https://www.leftvoice.org/columbia-students-occupy-hamilton-hall-down-with-repression-and-for-full-divestment-and-amnesty/ 212.29.194.49 (talk) 12:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

New WSJ article not featured

[3] This is a very detailed, RS that is not featured here. It talks about how "Activist Groups Trained Students for Months Before Campus Protests" at Columbia. Also how "Left-wing groups and veteran demonstrators provided guidance and support before rise of pro-Palestinian encampments."

These are quotes from the article. This is WSJ's investigative journalism printed in the Education section and not an OpEd.

No idea why this source is being ignored.

2601:19E:427E:5BB0:ACCD:7D1:EFC:6513 (talk) 03:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not exactly groundbreaking that national organizations are assisting with this EvergreenFir (talk) 04:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

"caused by anti Zionist sentiment"

In the infobox the first cause mentioned is antizionism. Wouldn't this be better phrased as anti-genocide and anti-apartheid? 2A02:A03F:6617:9501:F1DE:1112:C6A5:8140 (talk) 19:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

No. Do you know what genocide is? I guess not.. bc there's no objective way to claim what happens in Gaza is a genocide.

Same goes to the apartheid argument- how is it possible to claim apartheid if up until the war (initiated by Hamas) there were no Israelis in Gaza (no politicians nor army).

I don't mean to insult you, but it's very important that Wikipedia will remain a source of reliable information, and not rewritten by ignorants (which again, it's not an insult, just a request for you to educate yourself before editing a topic you're ignorant of). 2A0D:6FC2:4450:FA00:3F2E:305C:4A5C:D7F (talk) 08:25, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

‘Yes, it is genocide’ in Gaza says Israeli professor of Holocaust studies Iskandar323 (talk) 19:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems quite reasonable that a movement could call itself “anti-genocide” even where there is no real genocide. The question here should not be “are the protesters right to call it a genocide?”, but “how is the protest most accurately characterised?” — HTGS (talk) 06:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we should write about what specific reliable sources say about these protests and their causes. Although question of genocide and apartheid are connected to the larger pro-Palestinian protests, I haven't seen that naming them as such specifically is warranted. BaronRudor (talk) 13:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

"Anti-Zionism" basically covers all of that Evaporation123 (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia being the mouthpiece of american imperialism stands with the state of Israel unequivocally. So, everything will be framed in a very specific way that promotes their agenda. 2A02:85F:E058:1000:F13B:9676:7FF6:7B7E (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 May 2024

I whould like to change the date. The protests are definitely still ongoing, and have not ended. Blackmamba31248 (talk) 17:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 May 2024

See above for my previous post on May 3rd about: Infobox "Parties" and New York Hostage and Missing Families Forum. [4] I am not extended confirmed and would like to request the following edit/change: In the Infobox "Parties" section, please move New York Hostage and Missing Families Forum from the subsection titled "Pro-Israel counterprotesters" to a new subsection titled "Other Groups". Thank you. Serenity9096 (talk) 23:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 May 2024

Section on the responses by Shafik and Rosenbury regarding the protests. Graduation Commencement was cancelled due to "security concerns" Text to add: On Monday, May 6, Columbia announced that its university-wide commencement would be canceled following weeks of protests and the shutdown of the University campus. The student response led to a creation of a change.org petition, garnering over 1800 signatures.

Source: https://bwog.com/2024/05/columbia-university-announces-main-commencement-is-canceled-class-days-to-move-off-campus/ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/columbia-university-cancels-commencement-rcna150778

Columbia And Barnard Alumni are boycotting reunions and funding.

Text to add: Some Columbia and Barnard alumni have formed a new committee to boycott the University’s scheduled May 31 and June 1 reunions. In place of the reunions, there will be an alternate event that sends funds from the ticket sales to organizations providing aid in Palestine. Source: https://bwog.com/2024/05/columbia-and-barnard-alumni-announce-a-boycott-of-university-reunions-and-plans-to-send-funds-from-alternative-events-to-aid-in-palestine/

President Rosenbury Response to Second Arrests: Text to add: President Rosenbury emailed the Barnard community on May 2, acknowledging the added stress on campus and stating Barnard is "gathering information about the students involved." Source: https://bwog.com/2024/05/barnard-president-laura-rosenbury-sent-an-email-stating-she-is-aware-of-the-added-stress-caused-by-events-on-columbias-campus/

President Shafik Response to Second Arrests: On May 1, President Shafik emailed the Columbia community. She thanked the NYPD for their professionalism and hoped that Columbia will heal together. https://bwog.com/2024/05/president-shafik-thanks-nypd-for-professionalism-hoping-columbia-will-heal-together/ 209.2.231.63 (talk) 23:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The Facilities worker they took hostage

https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/30/dozens-occupy-hamilton-hall-as-pro-palestinian-protests-spread-across-campus/ https://www.foxnews.com/us/columbia-university-facilities-worker-speaks-terror-takeover-held-hostage

"A Facilities worker who was in the building exited the building at around 12:40 a.m., after shouting at the protesters occupying the Hamilton lobby to let him leave. As he left Hamilton, he yelled at the crowd, “They held me hostage.” 79.176.106.171 (talk) 18:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Fox News is unreliable and the Columbia Spectator page is just buffering for me - maybe their servers have been swamped with traffic, so hard to assess. If true, it would echo 1968, when the dean was held captive. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

there are picture of them attacking the Facilities worker in the article.... 79.176.106.171 (talk) 10:14, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

it should be noted, they swamped building for occupation at 12:30 AM, as per columbia spectator article.

That means they kidnapped the worker for 10 minutes. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

facilities member and students section in the article https://bwog.com/2024/04/live-updates-gaza-solidarity-encampment-day-13/ 128.59.178.128 (talk) 18:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

So they claimed to be taken hostage, and then other people who were studying or otherwise occupied in the building just left absolutely normally 20 minutes later? I'm not sure it's possible to buy into the level of claimed duress here. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The facilities person was certainly under duress, but as for the students, they were a part of one of the school's newspapers according to students around campus. 209.2.225.92 (talk) 20:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

"they kidnapped the worker for 10 minutes"

well, even kidnaping for 10 minutes is an illegal activity.

"your right ends where the right of others begin"

what they have done called Imprisonment, you should look it up... 79.176.106.171 (talk) 10:20, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

lol agreed.

restaurant kidnapped me when they kept me waiting for ten minutes for food and wouldnt let me leave. sure they said i had to pay, but they didnt have the food out yet! 2600:6C5A:587F:4532:6555:9571:24F9:D58D (talk) 03:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

where the restaurant physically stopped you from leaving?

there are picture of the protests and the facility member fighting..... 79.176.174.2 (talk) 10:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

When there's a guilty verdict in a criminal trial, wikipedia can call it kidnapping. Otherwise, it's a WP:BLP violation. Kire1975 (talk) 21:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

here is his testimony regarding the incident

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EipsEgdAfA8 79.176.174.2 (talk) 22:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

See also WP:INTERVIEWS, WP:RSEDITORIAL, WP:NOROPED, WP:NEWSOPED and Bari_Weiss#Political_views. Kire1975 (talk) 22:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

see also:WP:NPOV,WP:ENEMY

I didn't understand why you linked Bari Weiss political views, he his not any of the writers of the articles I have linked.

Francesca Block interview Mario Torres, aka The Facilities worker in the free press

AMIRA MCKEE, SARAH HUDDLESTON, ESHA KARAM, SHEA VANCE, MANUELA SILVA, AND CLAIRE CLEARY in columbia spectator article.

Lawrence Richard in the fox news article 79.176.174.2 (talk) 13:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

See WP:BLPREMOVE, WP:NOR and WP:SOAPBOX. Kire1975 (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Guardian claims

@Nableezy:

You recently removed coverage in the Guardian of antisemitic incidents, saying "revert, guardian reports that as incidents on campus, not part of the occupation". However, the scope of the article goes beyond events that occur in the encampment and Hamilton Hall, and covers related events including statements and protests. For example, we cover counter-protests that stop outside the campus, and we cover faculty members protesting the response to the protest.

In addition, The Guardian article puts those incidents in the context of the encampment. BilledMammal (talk) 20:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

This article is about the campus occupation, not every demonstration in upper Manhattan since October 7th. And no, the context of the Guardian article is antisemitism on US campuses, not the encampment. What it says is It’s hard to deny that there have been antisemitic incidents on the campus, including the targeting of students, probably Jewish, called “Nazi bitches” and told to “go back to Poland”. One female Jewish student described a masked pro-Palestinian demonstrator confronting her as she walked across campus one evening. She said he got extremely close and menacingly demanded to know if she was a Zionist. After that, she stopped wearing a Star of David necklace. Not every instance of antisemitism across campus is relevant here, which is not about antisemitism on Columbia, or all protests related to the war on Columbia. This article is about the campus occupation protest. nableezy - 20:30, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I have a feeling that isn't going to be a productive line of discussion, so I'll just point out that a third of the article is directly about the Columbia campus occupation, and most of the rest relates to that third, and leave it at that.

However, can you explain where you draw the line? Below, you support including in 2024 Columbia University pro-Palestinian campus occupation#Allegations of antisemitism an incident that took place outside the university gates - but here, you oppose the inclusion of an incident that took place inside the university campus? BilledMammal (talk) 20:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Point out whatever you like, but the Guardian does not say any of this happened as a part of this demonstration, as opposed to random acts across campus over months. No, I support the usage of Columbia Spectator, if you have some other reason for removing content you should say so, but your edit summary objected to a perfectly fine source and nothing else. nableezy - 22:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

So you support the removal of that source on the same grounds you support the removal of the Guardian source? BilledMammal (talk) 22:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The only thing I said was the edit summary claimed that this source was "insufficient" was incorrect, that the source is completely acceptable. If the material it is being cited for is unrelated to the topic of this article then that is a different issue and if that is true then yes it should be removed as not relevant. nableezy - 23:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Section header "Allegations of Antisemitism"

@Sawerchessread: Can you explain you changing the header to this? The protests have included incidents of antisemitism, not merely allegations of them. BilledMammal (talk) 00:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The second paragraph contains arguments from some that protests are not inherently antisemitic.

Allegations may be true or false, and some def are.

Titling it "Antisemitism" suggests that the question is solved, when it is controversial to suggest the protest as a whole is antisemitic. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 00:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

How about "Incidents of antisemitism"? That should address my concerns that we are suggesting that it is possible there have been no incidents, and your concern that we are suggesting the protest as a whole is antisemitic. BilledMammal (talk) 00:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

no still. Nobody imagines that because the title is allegations of antisemitism, that the incidents are not real.

I thought for a second maybe making a subsection about incidents of antisemitism, and arguments against antisemitism, but there isnt enough material to do that.

Also as reference, Anti-Zionism#Allegations of antisemitism uses allegations of antisemitism. There are clearly very antisemitic parts of anti-zionism that are addressed, and which are believed to be clearly antisemitic in that section. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 01:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Precedent isn’t an applicable argument on Wikipedia - what is the issue with "Incidents of antisemitism"? Unless I have misunderstood your comment, it doesn't explain what you see as wrong with it.

Is there an alternative that you would support that makes it clear, in the section header, that antisemitism has occurred and it is not merely allegations? BilledMammal (talk) 01:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

What is antisemitism? Because it seems a lot of anti-Israel things are described as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that there have been no incidents of genuine antisemitism during the protests at Columbia? BilledMammal (talk) 13:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Based on RS and content, there have been incidents of antisemitism from protesters and counter-protesters, as well as allegations from Jewish students, denied by Jewish protesters. Personally I think the section should be "Incidents and allegations of antisemitism", as neither simply incidents nor allegations is accurate here. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable to me; I support that. BilledMammal (talk) 18:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The incidents of antisemitism happened outside of the encampment, the accusations are more about what happened inside. I wouldnt support that as a title because it is prejudicial and also overly long. nableezy - 18:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

If that's the case it should remain as allegations. I assumed the examples provided were related to the university, ie the article, if not, then the content should be removed. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 19:44, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

They’re related to the university; most took place on campus, and most involved students. I think Nableezy is saying that they didn’t take place within the encampment - but the scope of the article isn’t limited to what took place within the encampment so I’m not sure why that’s relevant. BilledMammal (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Its about the campus occupation, which includes the encampment and the takeover of Hamilton Hall, not all protests that have occurred inside or outside the gates of the university. That some people outside the gates held antisemitic signs or said antisemitic things isnt in dispute, but as far as I am aware there are no reported as fact occurrences of antisemitism within this protest, that being the occupation outside the library and then Hamilton Hall. nableezy - 19:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

This, the article title is quite clear here. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

During the past few days, videos taken inside the encampment have shown students chanting “Zionists not allowed here,” “Go back to Poland,” and other students calling for “10,000 October 7ths.” Times of Israel. The first is concerning - "Islamists not allowed here" would almost certainly be a dog whistle for those with Islamophobic views - but the second and third are clearly antisemitic. BilledMammal (talk) 20:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

We now include the ToI reporting this. I dont think that single source elevates this past "allegations" or "accusations", and I also question how the TOI is better placed to report about a university in New York City than local news sources. nableezy - 20:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't and it isn't. Best just to attribute the source and move on imo. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

claims of anti-zionism as antisemitism are highly contentious. see New_antisemitism#Definitions and arguments for and against the concept.

The second and third chants by some of the students are clearly anti-semitic though. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 04:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t see how the third is but don’t think it matters too much for our purposes either way. Supporting violence against Israel isn’t definitionally anti-semitic. nableezy - 12:14, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Columbia Spectator

Is an excellent source and has been cited on this topic by a ton of other reliable sources. Removing it needs more than a vague claim of insufficiency. nableezy - 20:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I reverted, and added WP:INTEXT, but not convinced it needs it after all. It could be considered bias since it's the student newspaper and the protests are predominantly by students though. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

There are more than enough professional sources on this topic, some of whom - after doing suitable fact checking - repeat relevant information from the student media, and per WP:RSSM we should prefer such sources. This paper in particular was the one that claimed the NYPD used tear gas when clearing Hamilton Hall; this claim was later proven false, a product of inexperienced student reporters and a lack of the editorial control necessary to verify facts before releasing them. BilledMammal (talk) 20:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

As I just said in the topic above: Best just to attribute the source and move on imo, if it is bias or marginally reliable. Either that or take the discussion to the noticeboard. If there are "more than enough professional sources on this" then add the content to the article using reliable sources. No need to argue your point here. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Every news outlet on the planet has misreported something, some take years to admit it some correct it within hours or days. Your example shows its reliability, as the reporting of a developing story later had corrections and updates (here). You are free to raise your proposition that the student paper at the university whose School of Journalism awards the Pulitzers is unreliable at RSN. nableezy - 22:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

And just to loop back on this, the Pulitzer Board specifically praised student journalists at Columbia:

https://www.pulitzer.org/news/statement-pulitzer-prize-board-3 Jjazz76 (talk) 17:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

multiple sources have praised student newsletters and papers as having significantly useful and more in-depth coverage of the protests compared to national media. and multiple sources have argued that student reporters have been courageous for documenting the protests. id argue that suggests that most student newspapers are reliable until proven otherwise. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 02:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)